Kickin' & Streamin' Podcast

A Binge-watcher's guide to Streaming Movies, TV Series, & Stuff

Graham : 00:00

Yeah. So tell me about your experience with this movie. How How did you like Jojo?

Jocelyn: 00:07

I was surprised by how much I liked it. I honestly wasn't expecting very much. And now that I have seen it and have seen have read more about it and what happened, um, I kind of feel bad about not expecting very much. Um, so I can't say I have ever been a Shia LaBoeuf fan, but I certainly have a lot more empathy for him and respect that I ever did after this movie.

Graham : 00:40

And And I think that's what That's the main theme here that you don't necessarily have to have been a fan of his to to now because hey makes a point in in in humanizing every element of this movie. And by the way, I think I want to give a little bit more credit to Alma Har'el than shia even. Yes, I wrote his own screenplay in it, so it's about his own life. So I think you have to think about that combination of Shia's personal pain versus the magnificent directing off Alma Har'el.

Jocelyn: 01:26

Yes, I agree with that 100% because I think with a different director. It could have been a piece of crap.

Graham : 01:33

Could be absolutely, You know what, Jojo? With that said, Let's go ahead and start the show about that.

Jocelyn: 01:42

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Intro Announcer: 03:21

This is kicking and streaming podcast of Binge Watcher's Guide to Streaming movies, TV series on and Stuff. Here are your hosts, Graham and Jocelyn

Graham : 03:37

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode off kickin and streamin' Here with you. I am Graham with via Skype on this week of social distancing, My very better half in terms of podcasting. She is the co host. Everyone wants to have what I mind is to have her. Her name is Jojo, Uh,

Jocelyn: 04:02

how did doo?

Graham : 04:03

How do you do it to you Jojo Um and of course, we have to put it out there. You have not been feeling well, but obviously, you know, we don't want our audience to be worried that it has anything to do with covid 19. We live in a part of the United States where at this time, with or without cove in 19 most of us have running. Those isn't in watery eyes and so forth because allergies are the top off top issue, isn't it?

Jocelyn: 04:39

Oh, yeah, there's There's so much pollen in the air. It's insane. But ah, you know, erring on the side of caution and and self quarantining until I am a symptom. Asymptomatic? Is that the right word?

Graham : 04:52

Yes, yes, yes, a symptomatic. I feel like this is one of those words that we've overused lot in this period. And after that, you know, most people will completely forget about it about what it means in in a year from the ER. You know, that is of course, if Cuvee doesn't come back in in the in the next winter,

Jocelyn: 05:16

right? Great. And take a soul out so well, these were happy times. Oh, yeah.

Graham : 05:24

This week we are talking about a fantastic little movie out of Amazon Prime. This movie was in select theaters. I think back in November. If I remember correctly, Yes. And uh is called honey boy is sort off like loosely based on Shia LaBoeuf's life story. Yes, And I have to confess that even though I heard a beautiful interview with Alma Har'el and Shia LaBoeuf on NPR back somewhere early January, I wasn't planning on watching that movie, to tell you the truth. And when you suggested it, I felt yeah, why not make it a podcast episode about it? Just in case we'll run out of things to talk about that I am more interested. Uh huh. The truth, is. When I started watching this movie, I knew where it was going. I was fascinated by shy as performance from the very beginning, Yes, but at the same time, I started to become triggered. And so my first reaction was, I have I have to stop watching these because you know, it's not particularly my life, my life story, But the dynamic of manipulation and control that we see in this movie is has, you know, reminds me a lot of my own upbringing and childhood. So I I think it took me about nine days to finish the entire movie. I could only watch a total of love about 10 to 12 minutes at a time. I don't know. I don't know. You know, I I suffered through this movie a lot. And that's not to say that this movie is not good. This is a great movie and Shia LaBoeuf, deserves all praise is in accolades. But I have to warn you, if you had a difficult childhood, if you've had a difficult relationship with one of your parents or with both your parents, it could you could become triggered, Isn't it Jojo?

Jocelyn: 08:11

Yeah, I I agree with you with that, um, very much so. And not even necessarily was in the sense of, you know, being a golden ticket because I was certainly never anybody's golden ticket. But some of the the the As you said manipulation and sort of gas lighting and the way some of the communication goes on, if you had, perhaps not the greatest parent in the world, more parents in the world. Some of this is probably going to resonate with you and not in the best of manners. That being said, I think that is a testament to the talent of the actors and the director and the writer. Because I think if it had not been handled as skillfully as it was, it would have not. It wouldn't resonate. It would be like, Yeah, whatever. That's not how it goes Theeighty.

Graham : 09:14

You are correct, Joe. Uh, continue, please. But I think I think you are hitting the money part right there.

Jocelyn: 09:22

Yeah, I was I was gonna ask you if you felt if you felt that way to, you know, since it resonated with you. If it if you felt if you felt that that sort of connection to it in the sense of this is really good, because it connects to this part of me, that was a really bad time of my life. But if it if it had not been as well done, I don't think it would have connected to that terrible part of our lives.

Graham : 09:45

Yes, Yes, you're absolutely right. And here's the thing I What fascinates me the most about this movie is the fact that they managed to make art with it. Yeah, it wasn't a cruel piece of movie that they wanted to make it. I don't know. So do you remember, for instance, the movie Precious? Yes. So the movie Precious was a powerful movie, but it was at the same time, a very The cruelty was too much in your face that I don't like. I couldn't call it art, if you will. It was more like, almost as if he were as really as a documentary. There was, you know? Yes. Monique artfully a created a character in there that earned her an Oscar. And she was fantastic in it. But again, I the writing in if in itself was no, nothing compared to these and perhaps no, I'm not talking about. Maybe I shouldn't say they're writing, but rather the managing of the directing of the direction where the movie should be going and the weight should get there. I don't know if I'm making it even making sense.

Jocelyn: 11:18

No, I I think I know what you mean. That this this had a little bit of some of the magic and imagination you feel when you're still a child. Um, especially the interactions between shy girl and and Otis. I felt that that that reached a level of art and kind of reached a level of of having good times even when it was crap.

Graham : 11:46

Yes, yes, yes. And way are going to we'll get into the cast. You remember how many high praises I had for the actress who played who played shy girl? We're gonna We're gonna, you know, took a bit more deeply about the cast and specifically about f k tweaks as shy grow. But yes, you are. You are. I mean, come on, you've got the way that I am. I am. You know, I'm I'm speechless. No, because I'm surprised, but rather because it is just flowing out off your mouth in a way that I, you know, I can only be in all, uh um, So let's sort off, like go into the little be off the off the synopsis off this movie in, obviously the way that you can only do

Jocelyn: 12:46

well, it's It's honey boy. It was written by by Shia Leboeuf and and loosely based on his experiences. His life story is his world view. It's about a a young boy actor in the nineties whose father is essentially his acting coach slash manager slash handler slash agent, who is a sort of a failed stunt actor, kind of a failed actor himself. He has some talent, but not enough to go all the way. But his son is very talented, and it's the story of the relationship between the two of them, the sort of symbiotic need that there is between the two of them for each other, obviously, the need a child has for their parent, but but also the need that this father has for his kid to make it big and the the sort of sadness there is in that the loss of a relationship that could have been. And so it just kind of takes you through that to the child career in the nineties through a series of fash flashbacks and then also it takes you thio him as a young man, having essentially screwed up in being in rehab, and it's just it's a difficult movie to watch, but it's a beautiful movie at the same time.

Graham : 14:23

Yes, that's the best way off Describing it is difficult to watch. And it is a beautiful movie, a piece off art in every way. Shape before eso, as you were saying, the movie is sort of like, divided in in two time lines, right? Yeah. Uh, so you've got odis already as a you know, man child, if you will. Yes. You have roadies at 12 years old and, you know, going through all of these pain in in bad times. So the most powerful thing for me is the fact that she had decided to play the character that is based on his father. Yes. And according to what I read, he originally did not tell his father that he was the one playing him. He actually picked an actor that he knew. Well, Pete, the name of an actor that he knew his father was gonna be very proud off to play him, right? And so because obviously the father is a very vain person. So, you know, it's like coming and telling telling him. Look, I don't know. Clooney has agreed to play you, and of course that you know Oh, yeah. Let me let me sign this away. And then after that, he told him, No, I'm gonna be with the one playing you. And even still, Dad was not having. And he couldn't believe that Cheyenne was actor enough to put to portray him. And this is where we see what it is. Do you remember we had this conversation? What it used to be raised Bye in megalomaniac. And and this is what this guy is. As you said, He is a rodeo former rodeo clown, slash actor slash stoned man who has screwed up so much that he can. He's his time has passed, and he is not gonna make it. And so it's almost as if by carelessly he's living those dreams through his kid. But he can not manage to feel to let himself be proud off that, but rather to feel self pity in our insecure around his kids on talents in unfortunate and good fortune, isn't it?

Jocelyn: 17:03

Yeah. Threatened by him, I would say he's he's threatened by him and maybe a little scared of the kid's talent, and and instead of a CZ, you said, encouraging that, deciding that that has to be ah, bullied, you'll never be as good as make it. You'll never be as good as may.

Graham : 17:24

Right? And so the thing is that he knew that he was what he was saying wasn't true. But to a kid, Yeah, to a kid that said, Like when the person who's supposed to be you biggest champion tells you now, man, you don't have it, you ain't got it. And you know gonna be good. And it was almost in a way, you can only be grace if I make you great, isn't it?

Jocelyn: 17:58

Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah, that nobody else knows as much as I d'oh, you'll never learn anything from anybody but me. And you know, any anything you learned from anybody else's is crap. So, um, you could be good, but you have to follow my ways. But remember, you'll never be as good as me. That

Graham : 18:18

is insecurity in its at its best.

Jocelyn: 18:23

Yes, yes, and I think it's very telling. I know that that shy Leboeuf had to do what he had to do to get his father to sign off on this so he could get the movie made. But I've found it very telling that even though he's, you know, all grown up now and his father is is is elderly. When he's not older, he's elderly. Um and he's still Yeah, he still had the need. He still had to lie to him, You know what I mean? Like, he couldn't just go to his father and say, I'm making this movie and you're gonna sign this, and I'm gonna play you and I don't care what you think, but you're gonna sign it. You know, he's he still had to resort to manipulation, which is what I assume he was taught to get it done. And, um, to me, that's just hugely telling of the related relationship that they had and continue to have.

Graham : 19:16

Oh, yeah, It's that dynamic off fear that even when you are elect I tweeted ones that, you know, I always twit things with the hashtag grown a patient. And I was saying that going on vacation, you no slamming a door. It's such a no no, that at 43 years old, at my own damn house, when when I'm closing the door, I make sure to pull it with both hands so that I don't in fear that I'm gonna I'm gonna get yelled at and there is no one in the world that I will I fear most getting yelled that than my mother did. You know, as a 40 something year old, you know, people. If you haven't been there, you don't understand it. And that's exactly that dynamic we're talking about here. I like. I mean, the kid had to go to his dad and say, Look, man, I'm gonna do these, but you know, it's it's not me. It's somebody else. Like I have to I have to make you look good. Yeah, Um,

Jocelyn: 20:27

yeah, the ripples that ripples, you know, the still pond in the in the small stone. But the ripples go on forever.

Graham : 20:34

Yes, yes. And so let's go ahead and talk a little bit about the cast unless you have any comment about the story itself.

Jocelyn: 20:47

Um, the only thing I wanted to comment on was the chicken. I found the chicken an interesting diversion and sort of ah, metaphor for something that I didn't quite get. That was another part. I felt like where it reached art was was with the chicken. So with Henrietta eso with Henrietta the chicken. So I found the inclusion of her. This sort of I suppose I should explain a little bit for those of you who haven't seen it. The character that shy Leboeuf plays his father had a failed circus act that involved a chicken and they did needed acts. I mean, nothing weirder. Gross. It's just the chicken, you know, did little acrobatic things. And the father did acrobatic things. And when older Otis is in rehab, they have chickens at the rehab center and the in part of working at rehab, they have them work with animals and they have to clean out the chicken coop. And, ah, kind of the the flashbacks that that caused for him too. I found very interesting. And I thought it was a very evocative way of telling the story.

Graham : 22:02

Yes. And this is as you said, this is what brings it's so much more to in an artful movie, as opposed to just telling off a horrible story. Yes. Yeah, it is differently. Subject to interpretation that the chicken both if you notice always never lays a hand on the chicken, huh? It's like it chased that he never that never materializes. Yes, um, in to a certain extends. I I I would put it in my own interpretation. And everybody was just food. You two, Do you think about it in a different way. But for me, it is the happiness in childhood that he still wishes he had, you know, with his father in at the same time, The chicken, in my mind signifies all the dreams that his father constantly pursued and never got a hold off. All of these, you know, dreams. That field. It's like what I thought about it, you know, especially in the very last. I don't know, 10 more eight minutes of the movie, that's all. That's all I could see, you know, because he never gets to actually get a hold of the chain. And even when she could stop running, he just passes by in the two of them are by the pool like, Yeah. Is the chicken okay? Yes. Yeah. Yes. So, yeah, but But, you know, it was one of these details that I personally I wasn't remembering, So thanks for bringing that up, because that that is a very important part of the movie. Is this this thing off the chicken with the dreams and the nightmares and everything, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Um So he did write this movie, The screenplay, at least while he was in rehab, That going through all of these things. And I think this was the time where we all thought Thes guy is a clown. And what a great career he's throwing away. Obviously well are full of judgment and old themes seem to know, Especially when it's about a child actor. You know, all the shit that that will seem to think that would know, You know, Just get it together,

Jocelyn: 24:49

right? Right. Oh, they've got it so easy. They've got everything they've ever wanted and their famous Why aren't they happy? They should be happy. Why are you screwed up? What do you have

Graham : 24:57

his herd of about? Yeah, that that's not reality. And I think he's managed to make his case a CZ. We said in the beginning that you don't necessarily have to be a big fan of his to understand, to see where he's coming from. In all the things that he's gone through.

Jocelyn: 25:13

Yeah, and I think for me, too. It kind of made me think a little bit about empathy and the facts that just because I don't particularly care for somebody whether they're an actor somebody you meet in the street, you may not know everything about them. So empathy, you don't You don't have to understand what they went through to try and have empathy for people. Not that you let them walk all over you either, but you don't have to immediately jump Thio. Well, you've had everything given to you in life, So why should you be a jerk?

Graham : 25:48

Yeah, Yeah, And And this This involves people from all walks off life because the thing is, I remember no two little girls having this conversation, and I was saying, you know, it is very easy to say. Well, there's nothing wrong with these guys staying in the corner and tryingto, you know, to bum a cigarette and asking you for money. Why isn't he working and is there? Isn't to say that because, you know, you don't see anything wrong with him physically, But do we know what's wrong with him mentally and know all mental illness is visible is apparent. There are and know only that it could know this is really it doesn't have to be a mental illness. We think about this guy who is perfectly able to where? But who the hell is going to hire him? Because you don't know if he had I don't know, a little about in jail for Marina Mari. One opposition when he was 16 years old and he was completely stupid. But yet that still is in his record and he can't get a fucking job. We have to stop being so judgmental readily to George everybody, because we don't see what's wrong. Yeah, you know. Yes. E yes. That's the Minister's right there. Yeah. Yeah. So the cast. I am impressed by virtually everybody who took part in these movie. I don't know how you feel about that.

Jocelyn: 27:26

Yes, me too. I I loved the kid. Know it knew a Jew pop. I I loved his portrayal of of Young Otis. I think he just he just did a beautiful job of being a kid who just wants their dad to love him.

Graham : 27:45

Yes, and his ability to portray that pain. So yeah, found so beautifully. I don't know if that's even thing you can say, but yes, you are absolutely right. No nor Jube. I don't know. I've never seen this kid before. No, me neither. But what a cool leader actor he's aimed. I can only see you know great things happening for him from

Jocelyn: 28:15

now on. Yeah, Yeah, I think he, uh I think he has a great future ahead of him. And I hope that he as parents who love him. Yes, yes, e hope he's nobody's golden ticket.

Graham : 28:28

Yes. And hopefully he wasn't pulling outof own experience to portray all of what we saw in this movie. The kid I know he was acting and everything, but it looks like his lovable young gentleman And, um, you know, many a time I wanted to just reach out and give him a hug. Yes, yes. Yeah. So Lucas Hedges plays older audience, and, um, you know, uh, it's it's a character of the time that I don't necessarily have a little fun, Um, sympathy for because to assure an extent originally, he looked like he didn't want to be helped What? That is. In fact, one of the side effects off PTSD is the inability two to agree that you need treatment, you know, because with PTSD, you sort of talk yourself into some things that normally would work for you and that you shouldn't need any more help than that which normally, you know, is alcohol, drugs and shit like that. And so, you know, you have these need to portray that. I'm fine. You know? It's like when you fall in, a lot of people saw you fall. Yeah, Yeah, I happened. And then you go behind the wall instead, like, Oh, you know,

Jocelyn: 30:17

I think it looks like

Graham : 30:21

Exactly So I feel like that's what was going on. But there is a young men there that kept bodies company. I think his name is Byron Bowers. He's a comedian. And his lines were so funny. Yeah, he's his delivery was insane, but his likes Everything this guy said was funny, funny, funny. And yes, I think the funniest part about it is that obviously didn't find those for he.

Jocelyn: 30:57

No, no, just just looking at him like

Graham : 30:59

like for good. So Byron bars. It was a good casting their in. What do you think off Laura San Giacomo as as the as a therapist.

Jocelyn: 31:14

I was happy to see her better. What size seen her in in anything. And I've always liked her like I've always enjoyed her performances. So I, uh I was excited to see her, and I think she I think she did a really good job with being a therapist. I think she brought a crossed an empathetic and carrying therapist character. Very well,

Graham : 31:38

madly credible to it was like Like I see this lady. And immediately I see a therapist.

Jocelyn: 31:45

Yes, Yes. I don't see an actress playing a therapist. I see a therapist. Yes,

Graham : 31:51

that was those really, really good. And so now we go to the motel and we talk about some of the colorful characters we saw there, right? Yes. And that brings us, of course, to shy girl. Yes, I I don't know The the actress playing Side Girl is mostly known as a denser, more over denser than she's an actress. That doesn't mean that she doesn't act. But you know, her lunch into the world is more than I think. She toured with ah and Shiran, Kylie Minogue and a whole bunch of people f k a twig. She is from England. And what fascinates me the most about her character. I don't know if you would if you will agree with that, but is how little, she said. And how much she said, how little she opened her mouth. But how much her character's A's.

Jocelyn: 33:00

Yes, yes, I I agree with you 100% because she has very few lines. But she what she does say is very powerful. But more so. What she does is, um and I think maybe that was the message there, too, for young Otis because his father never shut up. He never stopped talking.

Graham : 33:21

Oh, my God. Yes. Hey,

Jocelyn: 33:22

never shut up. Um, but, see, I didn't really say anything, but every action she performed with Otis everything that she did with him and for him spoke more Southern words ever could. Yes, every touch, every look, every action said something more than just this person over here with verbal diarrhea.

Graham : 33:47

Yes, yes, The her glances were some of the most powerful things I've ever seen. And you know, as you say, that interaction caused in the the ability to bring so much innocence in that interaction. Yes, it's like it wasn't a woman rubbing a child of his innocence, but rather lowering herself to be as innocent as the child? Yes. I don't know if that makes Sens.

Jocelyn: 34:27

It does it. Does it make sense to me that there was? That's the other thing I thought was very touching to was it was It was so innocent. They're they're being together was completely innocent

Graham : 34:40

in there's this moment where I think the first time that they sort of, like, have these encounter, which, in my view, was completely, absolutely non sexual. It was sort of like, you need a hug. I need a hug, you know? Yes. And there was this moment where all this sort of like springs off the bed and find some money and gives it to her. And you could see the disappointment in her fees like this is no what this is about a ho. You know that Z count? How how did you misunderstand is you know what I mean. And I think the rest of the time this sort of like worked out for the two of them to understand in what situation they were.

Jocelyn: 35:33

Yeah, I thought that that it was really sad because you could, as you said, see the disappointment on her face and also the comprehension that this is the only way he knows how to show love. Because the only way he keeps his father around is by paying him. The only way he ever gets any good behavior out of his father is by paying him so you could see the comprehension on her face of this isn't what this is about. But I also understand why he did this. You know, there wasn't There was not judgment on her face. There was not there was not discussed. There was not excitement in the sense of Oh, boy. Free ride money. Um, it was this poor child only knows how to say I love you by giving me 50 bucks.

Graham : 36:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in that dynamic, if, you know, I didn't get off reading. And that seems to be a dynamic that, I dare say, has no faded in in shy as personal life. Um, the You know, the moment he made it big, I think hey went and went and bought this house for his mother in a car. And then he went and found his father. Took him to where? Harley Davidson store and told him if you see a bike that you like. Get it. You know, you know, it's It's almost as if now that I can show you that I'm good enough. You don't You know, you don't get to actually, I mean at me to yourself that you were wrong. And I've been good enough all along but years how I can show you how good I am, you know? Yes is a sad thing. You know, Um, it's it's it's a lot to work out as an adult. These feelings that you can only have friends you can only have of loved ones as long as you have something to give them is is one of the most damaging habits, if you will. Because it is the number one thing that will break every relation, every meaningful relationship the person has. Yeah, yet. So who else on the cast that we I There's an element that I like is that Mom was always there. But you never saw her? Yes, you know, and I think it was a court. They credited Natasha Leone as mom. But you never saw her, you know? No. Yeah. So these particular scene for me was heartbreaking, and I had to stop. I had to go. Just, you know, get a drink. And what? Something else in going back to it. Um, because I I still don't understand how some adults I don't see how much they hurt their kids when they don't take care too. You know, when they're gonna go added and hate each other and be horrible to each other to make sure not to do all of that in the prisons of the kid, right? Aimed for the notion that anyone would ask this poor kid. You know what? Be my messenger, you know?

Jocelyn: 39:40

Yes. Be the middleman for our phone

Graham : 39:42

bargain. My God, that was so horrible.

Jocelyn: 39:46

It was I

Graham : 39:47

feel bad for him. Because then any rage that the father felt towards the mother who's on the other side of the phone was directed at the poor kid. Yes, you know yes. Aimed. I think off course the kid was broken, but I think this is for me. This was where he he he was shattered.

Jocelyn: 40:20

I agree with you. I agree

Graham : 40:23

is his way. Who was shattered? Um two. Needless to say that we both like this movie. Yes, we think very highly of it. We I don't know, but I feel a certain kind of pride. I feel proud off off her Charlotte buff for these work.

Jocelyn: 40:49

Yeah, Yeah. I didn't really expect very much of it, to be honest, but after having watched it and seeing how how sensitively it was directed and and written, um, I'm very proud of of him. And I think he should be proud Thio of what he brought to the screen and the fact that he I was able to evoke some of those terrible times. But at the same time, you know, maybe give some of us some hope that at some point we'll be able to get past it.

Graham : 41:27

Yeah, And I also feel that same pride for Alma Harold for taking the lip from from mostly documentaries to a feature film and doing it so brilliantly. Yes, I see if future in absolutely blinding future there as a powerful voice that she will become in Hollywood.

Jocelyn: 41:59

Yes. And I look forward to that because there needs to be, you know, he needs to be more of that.

Graham : 42:05

This is is, um so watch this movie. It is on Amazon prime. It is called Honey Boy Starring Hi, Albert. Uh, no. Uh, juke, Um, Lucas Hedges, Uh, and F k a twigs, Laura's and Giacomo. Uh, who directed by the brilliant Alma Haro? Yeah, And tell us what you think. If you were able to watch it, please come back and tell us you can find us on Twitter. You confined us off course on Instagram, and you can leave us a message to on our website kicking instrument podcast talk. Come. You can find us on Facebook as kicking his Children and on being interest, right? Yes. Pieces First pin interest. You will find Jocelyn on Instagram as Jocelyn podcast and me you'll find me always as Mr Puts theta m r p u z z e t t a. That is on Twitter and on Instagram Please stay inside If you, you know, stay home. If you can take those social distancing warnings in, please protect yourselves You know you loved ones and protect the society around Yes, we need to stop the spread way Need to be vigilant but we need to do our

Jocelyn: 43:57

part. Yes, do our part to flatten the curb and not overwhelming already stressed and aging health care system.

Graham : 44:08

If you are affected by this way, are with you and wait. Thompson Ceiling, Get Wilson. Yes. Peace and good health. Absolutely. So for me and for Justin and thistles. Goodbye with Thank you very much for today.

Jocelyn: 44:33

Thanks, everybody, but I

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